Aqua Taskforce

zog wrote on August 20, 2008, 5:55pm

If a segregation between folders and files is desired, simply segregate them into their own folders. Or sort by type.

The real quirk lies in UI's that *prohibit* mixing of folders and files.

Flauchhaus wrote on August 20, 2008, 6:24pm

zog,
please explain why that would be bad for the UI. The only reason i could imagine would be that find as you type would be broken.

brice wrote on August 20, 2008, 6:41pm

It's all about options, I don't see how you can downvote giving the user more choice.

zog wrote on August 20, 2008, 6:58pm

The user already has unbounded organization options. They're just not expressed in exactly the way you were expecting.

Adding another preference option adds complexity, however small. In principle, I'm against added complexity, but sometimes the payoff justifies added complexity.

In this case, there's no payoff because you already have multiple ways to segregate your folders so that you aren't required, as was originally written, to hunt for that specific folder you want to drop things in.

Complexity + no payoff == bad for the UI. The user already has choice, so all I'm downvoting is needless complexity.

Flauchhaus wrote on August 20, 2008, 7:34pm

Personally i often using the spring open folders option to move/copy files. When doing this i don't have any option to sort the view by type if it wasn't set before. I have to drag the file to the bottom of the finder till it scrolls down to the folder i want. This would be way faster and comfortable if folders just would list before files.
The "soft by kind" option isn't preventing that i have to scroll down to the folders. But there here is a hack to rename the kind description of "folder" to " folder" (notice the space) so every time finder sorts by kind folders show up first. http://www.macosxhints.com/article.php?story=20...inder%2Bfolders%2Bkind

brice wrote on August 20, 2008, 7:37pm

Sorting by type cannot be compared to seperating folders from files in the finder.

While I do agree having too many options adds complexity, which doesn't help the end user, not giving enough options is also wrong. It's all about finding the right balance, while the current given options might be good enough for you it may not suit everyone.
If you consider that particular option adds too much complexity and confuses the user, Finder already has an 'Advanced' tab in its Preferences, apple could put it there along with ALL the other crazy ones, oh wait, there are only 4 of those.

In a perfect world I wouldn't care as much about folders, and rely mostly on tagging files.
But in certain circumstances using folders to sort files is a requirement.

zog wrote on August 20, 2008, 7:45pm

While you could still segregate manually by moving your folders to a separate folder from your files, I definitely agree that richer support for tagging in the Finder would be a godsend! One day, hopefully...

brice wrote on August 20, 2008, 7:57pm

zog - try and segregate that way when making a website ...

purefusion wrote on September 17, 2008, 4:02pm

Sorting by type is not the solution. Try sorting by name while having folders at the top!

I've lost countless hours of productivity simply by having to dig for a folder, especially in complex web projects. Sadly, the finder ui makes it's lack of decent organizational ways into the core of any app that can open or save files.

PROMOTED!

mojo2012 wrote on September 27, 2008, 8:35am

So guys, i want to clear something. Everywhere I look for "folders first" I'll get the same answer: sort by kind. To make it clear for once and for ever: that is NO solution. It simply is not the same as having folder at top.
Folder first means, to have folders at the top, sorted by name. Then all files a shown, as well sorted by name.
If I sort by kind, I get all "Doc Files" by name, then all "Excel files" by name, then a "Folders" by name, then all ....
You see the difference? I don't want to seperate each kind of file! Just Folders and files in general.
The next problem is, that sorting by kind DOESNOT guarantee that folders are on top. If there are other kinds, eg "Doc Files" (D comes before F ...) Then There are all doc files, then all folders, and then files again.

I understand, that some people don't need that feature. So I don't want to force happy people to get used to such a thing. But there MUST be an option, because it makes sense for many people. And come on apple, that can't be to hard to implement ...

zog wrote on September 27, 2008, 1:56pm

There *MUST*? Once and forever?

Just go download Path Finder (http://www.cocoatech.com/download.php). It has customizable smart sorting where you can get exactly the feature you're looking for, as well as umpteen others.

mojo2012 wrote on September 27, 2008, 6:41pm

I know this little app. Though it has that feature, it can't be used as a real finder alternative in leopard. It has some basic quirks as well, especially with all the view modes, eg. the sort folders first doesn't differentiate between app files and folders, as app files basically are folders.
And it is not free!

purefusion wrote on September 28, 2008, 10:43pm

Path Finder is NOT the solution. Finder's lack of folder sorting penetrates deep into the core of the system, including applications. I use web development apps, which also mix files and folders in the list... highly inconvenient!

Moreso, having to use Path Finder when I /do/ actually use finder (I avoid it in order to remain sane) Path Finder is YAI (Yet Another Inconvenience).

Why doesn't apply just buy Path Finder and integrate into the core of the system, thereby replacing Finder altogether? :P

abitgone wrote on September 29, 2008, 7:56am

I find Finder's way of sorting folders and files as one contiguous list quite refreshing actually - I don't know how many times I was frustrated in Windows when it segregated the files and folders and find-as-you-type didn't work as expected.

I have to say I much prefer the Finder approach. Can't see the problem here.

mojo2012 wrote on October 11, 2008, 12:47pm

@abitgone: if you don't have a problem with that: OK! But some people have ... ergo there should be an option. That's has nothing to do with windows or linux or god and the world.

@zog: a small checkbox in the finder preferences "Display Folder at top: Yes/No" is compelx for you? Hmm, wait I have an idea: just drop the option "show all suffixes" --> this is far to complicated to me, it always gets me confused ...
And the "empty trash safely/securely, show folders in separate windows ... no, I can't anymore ... so ... complex ... my brain ... HURTS! ;-)

Back to topic: If there are two separate opinions, why not let the people choose?

purefusion wrote on October 12, 2008, 7:04pm

@mojo2012: I just looked at the finder options again, and now I have a migrane... :P

@abitgone: too bad find as you type doesn't work inside many apps' save-as, and similar dialogs.