Submission details
iChat AV can't video-chat between Mac and Windows computers
iChat AV is supposed to be the best video chat application, but it only works with Macs. That would be fine if it also supported the most popular video-chat protocols like MSN, but it doesn't. It's completely impossible to use Apple or MSN software to video-chat between different operating systems. Considering that most of the computers on the planet use Windows, it means iChat has a very limited market and isn't very useful.
At the moment I either have to use aMSN or Mercury Messenger on the Mac to video-chat with Windows, both of which are quite horrible un-Mac-like applications. Skype works between Mac-Windows but is peer-to-peer so works very slowly, and isn't reliable with dial-up connections that are very common in many parts of the world. Many internet cafes in Asia don't have Skype installed so MSN is the only choice, plus it works very well over slow connections.
Either produce a Windows version of iChat, or enable iChat to be compatible with MSN Messenger video-chat.
I know both of these ideas are pretty far-fetched, nobody needs to comment on exactly why neither of these things will ever happen (I'm well aware Apple don't want to actively support Microsoft products, and don't want to provide free software for Windows users) but all I'm saying, it's ANNOYING.
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Discussion (11 comments)
I just wish there was a way to video chat with Windows users without using buggy Microsoft software (which doesn't even support video chat on OS X) or crappy Java based third-party software. Yahoo Messenger is so unstable it's ridiculous. Skype is based on peer-to-peer so video lag is terrible. I'm currently using a ten year old Windows PC with a $5 webcam to video chat to people overseas using MSN. Hopefully Google will come up with some form of multi-platform video chat, then people can use anything anywhere.
The MSN video-chat protocol was reverse-engineered years ago, many open-source chat applications provide video-chat. Libraries to support the protocol are freely available for download. It's possible Apple don't use these open-source libraries in iChat because they'd be sued by MS for reverse-engineering (and they are a much bigger target than some teenage open-source programmer who codes in his bedroom) but it's also possible Apple are simply arrogant and expect the entire world to go and buy Macs just to use iChat. We'll probably never know the real reason.
Apple already provide Safari for free to Windows users for no particularly good reason, with no profit to be made, so it would seem logical to also provide iChat AV. Apple are LOSING SALES from this, most importantly losing sales from their target market of uni students, young professionals and home users. When I worked at AppleCentre, uni students would walk in to buy a Mac, find out they can't video chat to their girlfriend or boyfriend who has Windows, then walk out the door and buy a laptop from the PC place across the road. Or they'd come in, buy a Mac then demand a refund the next day. That was four years ago, and there still isn't a solution. It doesn't matter how good the Mac is compared to the PC, if it can't perform one simple necessary function, it becomes a paperweight.
I'd say the absence of a good, open-source video extension to XMPP (or Jabber, if you prefer) is the real issue. I stopped using MSN a long time ago, I've never used Y! Chat, and whilst I've had a .mac screen name for years, I've never really used iChat on the AOL network.
XMPP is an open protocol, which means that video chat could, eventually, be bolted on to it. I seem to remember something about Jingle, which was supposedly going to be a standardised, open video extension to XMPP, using JPG over RTP, but I don't see it widely implemented anywhere yet.
You can always take your 'paperweight' back to the shop if you don't like how it is.
"You can always take your 'paperweight' back to the shop if you don't like how it is."
Smart people don't buy stuff in the first place if they know it doesn't work. That's why so many uni students bypass the Mac and purchase Windows computers, knowing there's help available everywhere, they are compatible with everything, and they can do whatever they want without Apple dictating the terms. They can't use iChat, but that's no big deal because 90% of their friends are using MSN or Yahoo or Skype.
Google just released a Google Talk beta in November 2008 which will hopefully allow anybody on any system to chat using only a browser window:
http://mail.google.com/videochat
Unfortunately it doesn't support PPC, but hopefully that will come in time. I don't feel like spending thousands of dollars buying a new Intel Mac just so it can do something the ten year old Pentium 3 PC I found in the trash can do with a $5 webcam.
Do you even like Apple anymore?
Mac sales are through the roof and you're saying that people don't like them? Okay, many of your uni friends might pass it up - hell, they don't even want to pay that much wich is perfectable understandable. Just stop dissing just to diss. Microsoft has never officialy released the code, so Apple can't and won't implement it. Also, Microsoft own MSN on mac doesn't even support video - it's more a strategic move from Microsoft's side to make sure people don't buy macs. However, I know very little people who think of videochatting as a necessarry option. I honestly know no-one who uses it.
"Do you even like Apple anymore?"
I'd like it a whole lot better if it actually worked as advertised, but it's becoming increasingly difficult to get things done using only OS X. Three times this week I had to resort to using Windows for stuff the Mac SHOULD be able to do but cannot. It couldn't read a DVD, then it mangled a camera SD card after adding ._resource files and I had to use a PC to clean it up, then I had to use an online banking application that needed Java 1.6 (which Tiger doesn't support, but some of my applications aren't Leopard compatible yet, so I can't use Leopard). It's so darn frustrating. I still like Apple and prefer it to Windows, but there are so many things that need improving. Hopefully the increased popularity will lead to more opportunities for us Mac-loving folk.
"I know very little people who think of videochatting as a necessarry option"
I agree with you that I never thought it was a terriblly necessary option either. That's until my girlfriend moved overseas for a few months to study, and I found out how excellent it is to be able to chat to her face-to-face. When I moved overseas for a few months I could chat to my family face-to-face. Of course we needed to use Windows, because it's virtually impossible to find a Mac in Asia, and I've never come across an internet cafe that doesn't use Windows. Australia hosts hundreds of thousands of international students and gets over 150,000 new immigrants every year from all over the world, so video-chat is becoming extremely popular for people to keep in touch with relatives. Most of my friends use MSN or Skype, but I don't know anybody who uses iChat, simply because nobody at the other end has a Mac.
If Apple released iChat AV for PC, they'd have a chance at conquering the video-chat market before Google get their own multi-platform solution up and running. They already released iTunes and Safari for PC. Steve Jobs believes the iPod Halo Effect is supposed to introduce people to Apple by showing them just how easy to use the software is. If people coud use iChat AV on Windows and realise how good it is compared to MSN, they might just decide it's the final straw that makes them leave Windows behind.
Changed title from [iChat isn't available for Windows, and isn't MSN compatible] to [iChat AV can't video-chat between Mac and Windows computers].
Changed problem description.
I can see your point, yes - seeing is better than believing. But okay. I'de like to say that there is absolutly no incentive for Apple to do this. There is no profit in this market for Apple at all. It has to set up a free service (else it can't defeat the free MSN), severs, application support, customer support, Windows support. This is a lot of money for something that Apple does not have an immediate advantage.
I'de also like to add that this is MICROSOFT'S fault. Should you blame Apple because Microsoft delivers a low-end messenger that doesn't do half the functionality? Apple isn't to blame on this one - Microsoft is. By the way, Skype supports chat functionality and videochat and is avaible for all platforms with free registration. Maybe that's your solution? (Also Skype looks pretty good on mac).
"I'de also like to add that this is MICROSOFT'S fault."
Yes, it's definitely Microsoft's fault that they don't provide a full-featured Messenger for Mac. But if you want to blame somebody, it's equally Apple's fault for not providing iChat AV for Windows.
At least Microsoft provide a text-only version of MSN for Mac. Apple don't even care enough to release a crippled version of iChat for Windows. They release Safari for Windows which is completely unnecessary (considering Windows users can already choose between Firefox, IE, Opera and heaps of others) but ignore something potentially useful like iChat.
Skype is peer-to-peer based, so it doesn't work well over dial-up connections, but MSN works very well. I've never actually tried iChat because nobody I know owns a Mac with a webcam. Maybe it won't work over dial-up, who knows, I'll probably never find out.
Uhm, Microwavedave, like I pointed out: Apple doesn't have an extensive online services network and Apple doesn't see profit in that. Microsoft currently has the servers and wants to get people to use Windows so they keep the good functionality for Windows users. Apple has no benefit for releasing iChat AV, because iChat uses a lot of things that only mac users can have - like an iSight. Apple wants to show off it's superior webcam and won't allow other webcams on it's network for that reason.
You blame Apple for not releasing iChat Av for Windows? Honestly, the messenger market is dominated by Microsoft and AOL and Apple doesn't want to play that game because it's loss making. This just doesn't make any good sense for a company like Apple - AT ALL. They released iTunes for Windows because it spread it's iPod consumer base. it released Safari because it extends their consumer base. Releasing iChat to fight up against an already mature market... Wait, let me explain this in marketing terms - maybe you'll see my point. MSN for Windows is a succesfull product in a mature market. It has dominance. iChat AV for Windows would be an unproven product in a mature market - and you can't just release something in a mature market, it doesn't make business sense. Let's look: Apple iPhone was a unproven product in a new market, something worth trying. For example, the Zune was an unproven product in a mature market. Also, iChat AV wouldn't even be able to out-price it's competitors because it's free. Microsoft constantly undercuts it's competitors in pricing with the Xbox and could that way break into a more mature market with a new product - at a huge loss.
Anyway, I'm tired of explaining this to you. You just don't understand anything about markets and you only have wishes in vein. You should, for god sake, understand that this is entirely Microsoft's fault for releasing a crappy messenger that can't do videochat even though it's Windows counterpart can. Yet you shift the blame to Apple for not releasing a product in a market where it can't succeed. Apple would have to set up servers, add support, development... it would be costly. What's the profit? It's a pure, pure loss for the company. It's Microsofts fault and if you deny that, just look at the numbers. Currently your post is at -3, and 7 people understood that this whole idea doesn't make a lot of sense. post this on Aerotaskforce please, and urge Microsoft to build better software for mac users to be compatible with Windows. Or, what the heck, just run Windows in Boot Camp and you're fine - iSight is supported, you know?
1. Apple will not release iChat for Windows.
2. There WILL be a new version of Mac Messenger, after the current version, that will support video chat. For now, we can only wait.
Just like i waited 4 years for Microsoft to make POP3 access free in Hotmail, and it finally is here.
Apparantly, yes!
http://www.officeformac.com/blog/An-Update-on-Messenger-for-Mac
So... still blaming Apple, MicroWaveDave?
jasper wrote on January 6, 2009, 2:59pm
There are other reasons Apple doesn't implement it: it isn't open, and Apple H.264 isn't supported for Windows Messenger. Nice idea. Video chat is out of the questions, just because of the technical problems, but text chat support would be nice. However, MSN is less popular in the US and mostly a European thing. Also, apple support a few services ranging from AOL to Google Talk.
Also, Microsoft has not released open specifications for videochat as far as I know. If you want a mac application that gives you MSN, Adium is the best choice: it's great, but doesn't support video (same restrictions).
"nobody needs to comment on exactly why neither of these things will ever happen (I'm well aware Apple don't want to actively support Microsoft products, and don't want to provide free software for Windows users) but all I'm saying, it's ANNOYING."
You're beating the purpose of this site. People have to comment why it shouldn't happen or can't be implemented.
Also, there is no profit in it for Microsoft. They'de just be tying people to Microsoft while there are other free and open services avaible. Sorry to do exactly that what you didn't ask to do (I know it's directed at me), but people can judge only fairly if you tell them the whole story, not just your annoyance part. (This isn't even really Apple-related, this should be posted on the Windows site, since Microsoft really needs to update their own official Messenger to include these functions, but Microsoft won't because it could drive people to mac).