Aqua Taskforce

abitgone wrote on October 31, 2008, 10:41am

Someone new to computers, presumably, wouldn't know how to do anything with the computer, so I doubt it would drive them crazy. OS X is not Windows. OS X has never allowed you to delete a file with just a tap of the delete key, so "because Windows does it" -- a recurring reason given, on this website, for why OS X should do things -- is probably one of the worst reasons in this case.

High Severity? Don't see it myself. I'd say low at best.
Medium Impact? It's really hard to press the CMD button? Nope.

Personally, I like the fact that tapping the delete key doesn't delete my files. YMMV.

hoopla_punta wrote on October 31, 2008, 2:14pm

I feel it's too risky to put the large delete key as a "delete key"

mojo2012 wrote on October 31, 2008, 7:57pm

if it's to risky, why not simply rename the delete key to something more "unrisky", eg. trash key, or recycler key. Ow yes I know a good icon ... do you know the three arrows aligned in a circly (win95 recycle icon??)
Come on guys, you're talking about all these windows idiots and than such a statement ...

Btw. cmd-backspace just moves a file/folder to the trash bin - so it's not deleted. You have to empty the trash bin first. And you will be asked if you really want to ...

ebaur wrote on October 31, 2008, 9:19pm

I know a lot of people are annoyed that Mac OS X is different than windows... and, while I understand that this is a site for "annoyances" and not necessarily "bugs", I still get a bit annoyed at people who assume that Mac OS X should behave the way Windows does.

Different systems are going to be different. Get used to it. If this behavior was changed, it would just annoy other people instead of you. The best proposed fixes, in my mind, are the ones that serve all (or at least most) people.

Now, in regards to this one, moving a file to the trash is considered a "destructive" action. (Yes, it's not technically deleted, but it's still more dangerous than just moving a file, for example.) One of the design principles of Mac OS from the beginning is that destructive actions shouldn't be default and shouldn't be "easy" to do, lest they be done on accident.

There is no other file action that I can think of that can be done with a single keystroke (save starting a rename, but that's a no-op without other keystrokes following it). There is a good reason for this, and the only reason to change it is because of what you're used it. (The name of the key is a spurious argument, the key has that name for other reasons... heck, Windows keyboards have a backspace instead of a delete... so what? Oh, and in Internet Explorer it moves the browser back a page - that totally fits the key, doesn't it? (Actually this causes problems sometimes for me, when I thought I was deleting text in a post like this one, for example.)

Anyway, sorry for the long-winded response, but this is hardly a high sev issue. Come on! Crashing, loss of data... those are severe. You having to use two fingers instead of one to delete a file? Kind of low, don't you think?

hereafter wrote on November 5, 2008, 3:38am

WHy? keyboard shortcut should be short , damn. I hate xCode clear console default is Ctrl+Alt+Apple+R, donot refuse to change, because Windows does it. It is far better, and deleted file can be recovered, so... CHANGE

ebaur wrote on November 5, 2008, 3:53am

I hardly think that considering "Delete" vs. "Command-Delete" is at all comparable to something in Xcode that requires four keys on the keyboard.

Part of what is going on here is that the Command key *means* something. It means that a command is being sent. No other single key will produce an effect other than text input, save Function keys.

I'm not opposed to changing things that make sense... I disagree that this one is necessary.

stefanowitz wrote on May 13, 2009, 1:13pm

Hi.

It's not just an annoyance. It is actually a somewhat strange inheritance from a specific past. I'm also coming from an Windows background and feel totally free to admit that OSX is far nicer and quicker on certain issues... but feel that the 'safety arguments' about it being too riscy etcetera are a bit strange.

But, seperate from the dangerous vs easy-one-key discussion, wouldn't it be just the smartest way to allow for remapping the Delete (Forward Delete) key to those who choose to? This would enable the prudent people to keep a two-key entrance to the potential dangerous action to move items to the trashbin. And also enable other users to implement their preferences allowing for one-finger trashbinning.

I don't see the problem to solve this problem.

aequalsb wrote on June 9, 2009, 6:49pm

yeah... are you nuts? the delete key is far too casually pressed, and therefore accidental file deletion would be too easy -- just like it is on Windows...

besides... aren't all you Windows people right-click dependent? let's have a big laugh right now at how many people say they don't like Mac because it doesn't have a right-click mouse! LOL!

so... c'mon... be a Windows user and just use right-click to delete files -- THAT works the same way on both OSs

-1

mikeschinkel wrote on December 25, 2009, 9:10am

+1 - Accidental deletion is not a valid concern because there is a trash can. But, make this an advanced option that can be turned on my people who are past beginning user stage and don't want their computer to constantly get in their way like the Mac seems to do.

Mac really needs some advanced user options so that the Mac is more usable by power users. As is, the Mac is hobbled to ensure that beginners don't do something stupid thus never really letting users advance.

Why cede the power user space to Windows?

ebaur wrote on December 29, 2009, 10:39pm

"power user space"?

We're talking about hitting Command-Backspace compared to hitting the Delete key, right? Is this really a block to you being a self-described "power user"?

BTW, Mac OS X *does* have the ability to remap any keyboard command from any application, which is a very powerful feature that Windows does not have. It also has the ability to swap out the various modified keys - which is useful for using a Windows keyboard on a Mac. Try doing the reverse, it's very difficult to setup and required third party software.

The one caveat that you're not going to like is that the command mappings are required to have at least one modifier key (other than shift). So, no you can't use it to have "Move to Trash" execute via the Delete key only. Deal with it. The paradigm is that the command key is pressed when a *command* is to be sent to the computer rather than just text input. It's done that way, in part, for consistency. Also, as has been pointed out, it keeps you from being in the middle of renaming a file, then accidentally deleting it (well, moving it to the trash) because you weren't in rename mode when you thought you were. Can it be recovered, of course... is it annoying? A bit. Is is more annoying than having to hit *two whole keys at the same time* to delete a file... I guess we disagree on that.

Look, I get it.. it annoys you having to press two keys. Fine. Don't try and pull this "power user" crap, though... it just make you look silly.

mikeschinkel wrote on December 29, 2009, 11:23pm

@ebaur - We're talking about hitting Command-Backspace compared to hitting the Delete key, right? Is this really a block to you being a self-described "power user"?

Yes, power users like to avoid carpal tunnel syndrome as much as the next guy; more so actually.

@ebaur - BTW, Mac OS X *does* have the ability to remap any keyboard command from any application, which is a very powerful feature that Windows does not have. It also has the ability to swap out the various modified keys - which is useful for using a Windows keyboard on a Mac. Try doing the reverse, it's very difficult to setup and required third party software.

Never said the Mac doesn't have some great things. BTW, that keyboard remapping doesn't work on all apps; just had it not work yesterday on a Java-based app I'm using.

@ebaur - Look, I get it.. it annoys you having to press two keys. Fine. Don't try and pull this "power user" crap, though... it just make you look silly.

No, it makes you look silly to not be able to consider another person's perspective that doesn't agree with your own.

ebaur wrote on December 29, 2009, 11:55pm

@mikeschinkel - No, it makes you look silly to not be able to consider another person's perspective...

You missed my point, sorry if it wasn't clear. I do actually understand what you want and why. I've even had the thought myself that it would a smidgen easier to be able to delete a file with one keystroke*. What I'm teasing you about is that you make it sounds like it's a huge deal. To me a power user is someone who runs Linux, Mac OS X and Windows and switches between them. A power user is someone who has built small utilities to streamline common activities - using batch files, Automator, etc. A power user is someone who has customized the system beyond what the original developers intended. A power user is someone who has figured out how to do most of what they need to do via the keyboard and/or command line and not touch the mouse (hey, it's faster to not switch!).

A power user is not someone who is frustrated that they have to hit two keys at the same time in order to delete a file*.

By elevating this issue to a "power user" issue, I think it sounds silly. It's an annoyance, nothing else. Or, you and I have significantly different definitions of what a power user is.

@mikeschinkel - Yes, power users like to avoid carpal tunnel syndrome as much as the next guy; more so actually

See, this is what I'm talking about. Do you really think that having to hit two keys to delete a file significantly increases your risk of carpal tunnel syndrome? How many keys do you hit on a daily basis and what percentage of them are involved in deleting files? This is blatant and useless exaggeration.

@mikeschinkel - BTW, that keyboard remapping doesn't work on all apps; just had it not work yesterday on a Java-based app I'm using.

Oops.. my mistake. The feature is only available for Cocoa apps (ie: Mac OS X "native"). It doesn't work for Carbon apps, either. Sorry for misleading people there, I should have known better.

*Now for the footnote.

All this is about having to hit two keys to delete a file... have you counted recently how many keys you have to hit on Windows to delete a file? "You just have to hit the del key" I hear you object, "and Windows doesn't insult you by assuming you'll make a mistake, Mac OS X treats you like an idiot!" And then, after hitting the Del key, a dialog pops up: "Are you sure you want to send '...' to the Recycle Bin?" with a "Yes" and "No" button. Hm... maybe I'm not enough of a Windows power user to be able to do this trick w/out two keystrokes - or a trip to the mouse, which is less efficient, so let's not go there.

Maybe they've changed things... I'm using Windows XP. And I'll admit that I haven't dug around to see if there is a way to get rid of that dialog, but if there isn't a way, then the keystroke count is the same between the two OSes and this entire thread is completely pointless.

mikeschinkel wrote on December 30, 2009, 12:21am

@ebaur - You missed my point, sorry if it wasn't clear. I do actually understand what you want and why. I've even had the thought myself that it would a smidgen easier to be able to delete a file with one keystroke*. What I'm teasing you about is that you make it sounds like it's a huge deal.

What you are hearing is my frustration with the general Mac zealot for whom everything about the Mac is perfect and for whom no constructive criticism can be valid. I'd say 1/2 of Mac users I meet in person and more than 1/2 I meet online have this attitude. It's not helpful.

I *want* to like the Mac, but currently there are lots of little annoyances. To be honest, the delete key is a tiny one compared to some others (like the inability to cut/copy a path in Finder and then to be able to paste the path for path selection into Finder or an open dialog, or the lack of ability to delete, move, or rename files in an open dialog. Those are *huge* annoyances.)

@ebaur - To me a power user is someone who runs Linux, Mac OS X and Windows and switches between them.....

And there you go; "The world according to *you*." In your world a power user is by your definition. My definition is different; it is someone who has the skills to learn how to do everything but want to streamline everything as much as possible. At least that's what I come up with on short notice.

I accept your definition as it applies to you if you'll accept my definition as it applies to me.

@ebaur - Do you really think that having to hit two keys to delete a file significantly increases your risk of carpal tunnel syndrome?

Yes.

@ebaur - How many keys do you hit on a daily basis and what percentage of them are involved in deleting files?

You are fixating on the specifics instead of looking at the larger complaint; having to press multiple keys for many things is an annoyance. But it is a much smaller annoyance than the things I mentioned above.

@ebaur - This is blatant and useless exaggeration.

Again, from your perspective. The fact you are not willing to consider another perspective is telling.

Let me guess; you are under 30, right? I ask because if you are then carpal tunnel is less likely to be a concern.

@ebaur - Oops.. my mistake. The feature is only available for Cocoa apps (ie: Mac OS X "native"). It doesn't work for Carbon apps, either. Sorry for misleading people there, I should have known better.

I appreciate you acknowledging.

@ebaur - have you counted recently how many keys you have to hit on Windows to delete a file? "You just have to hit the del key" I hear you object, "and Windows doesn't insult you by assuming you'll make a mistake, Mac OS X treats you like an idiot!" And then, after hitting the Del key, a dialog pops up: "Are you sure you want to send '...' to the Recycle Bin?" with a "Yes" and "No" button. Hm... maybe I'm not enough of a Windows power user to be able to do this trick w/out two keystrokes - or a trip to the mouse, which is less efficient, so let's not go there.

I didn't say Windows is perfect; far from it. So let's not switch the subject to Windows thus saying that two wrongs make a right. Just because Windows has aspects that suck doesn't mean the aspects of the Mac that suck are okay.

@ebaur - Maybe they've changed things... I'm using Windows XP. And I'll admit that I haven't dug around to see if there is a way to get rid of that dialog, but if there isn't a way, then the keystroke count is the same between the two OSes and this entire thread is completely pointless.

Wow, that's like me coming on here and complaining about the Mac while using System 7. Contrary to the negative press Vista is much better than Win XP (assuming you turn off Aero and UAC) and Win 7 is supposed to be a lot better still (though I've not used it as I bought a MacBook Pro and upgraded to Snow Leopard; somewhat wishing I had waiting for Win 7 instead.)

ebaur wrote on December 30, 2009, 2:18am

@mikeschinkel - What you are hearing is my frustration with the general Mac zealot for whom everything about the Mac is perfect and for whom no constructive criticism can be valid.

Fair enough. What you get from me is that I've used multiple operating systems and I genuinely prefer Mac OS X. Many things on this site people pretend there are objective reasons for, but usually there aren't. It comes down to preferences most of the time. This is no different. I regularly switch between Mac OS X, Windows, Linux and develop for all three... I've found that most of the time I can work very efficiently on any one of them in the confines of a standard install... so I do take with a grain of salt some of these types of complaints.

@mikeschinkel - I accept your definition as it applies to you if you'll accept my definition as it applies to me.

I'm okay with that, but then the word shouldn't be used... since it's now meaningless for discussion. (I'm not trying to be mean, but if a definition can't be agreed upon, then any sentence containing it is going to cause confusion.)

@ebaur - Do you really think that having to hit two keys to delete a file significantly increases your risk of carpal tunnel syndrome?
@mikeschinkel - Yes.
@ebaur - This is blatant and useless exaggeration
@mikeschinkel - Again, from your perspective. The fact you are not willing to consider another perspective is telling.

Sorry, this isn't about perspective. You are bad at math... or you delete an amazing amount of files one by one each day.

I have a programming project I've been working on in the last few months. It's up to about 25,000 lines of code and over 1 million characters. Granted, due to code completion and copy/paste, I didn't type each character, but I also had to retype and delete things, so I think that's a fair estimate. In that time, let's say that I've deleted 10 files per day... that's around 1000 files during the course of that project. So, 1,000 / 1,000,000 = 0.1% Of course, that's not including the number of e-mails and documentation I've written (around 100,000 more characters in docs for just this one project). I'm sorry, I don't believe that adding 1000 more keystrokes to 1 million increases your risk of carpal tunnel.

@mikeschinkel - Let me guess; you are under 30, right? I ask because if you are then carpal tunnel is less likely to be a concern.

Interesting Ad Hominem. No, I'm over 30... in fact, I've nearly been using computers for 30 years. Again, this has nothing to do with my concern for CTS... it's the fact that taking two keystrokes to delete a file isn't going to make much of a difference, so I find it a pointless thing to bring up. In fact, I tend to be a pretty heavy keyboard user in order to keep better posture overall (I often find it amusing that an old complaint of Classic Mac OS was that you couldn't do keyboard navigation very easily... now I watch my friends tied to a mouse completely in Windows.)

@mikeschinkel - I didn't say Windows is perfect; far from it.

My initial response to you was in large part due to the comment: "Why cede the power user space to Windows?" So, you're contradicting yourself a tiny bit.

The comparison is interesting, however, because it shows that two separate UI teams decided that file deletion was important enough to protect from occurring accidentally. This is especially true when the file is on a network share and will not be saved in the Trash/Recycle bin. (Note: Mac OS X does warn you with an additional dialog about this). But Windows has a *less* user friendly (my opinion) way of dealing with the original issue and uses the exact number of keystrokes in the end. By making the power user statement, in this thread, you implied that having to strike two keys in Mac OS X was somehow worse than having to strike a single key, wait for a second, then strike another key. I can delete a large number of files much faster

@mikeschinkel - Contrary to the negative press Vista is much better than Win XP

meh. I'm a Mac user at home and I use what they give me at work. Nearly everyone I've talked at my office (power users! [grin]) has told me that they prefer XP to Vista. The same people tell me Windows 7 rocks. I'll be installing that in VMWare on my MacBook soon. Windows Server 2008 annoys me, but that's probably just familiarity again. [grin]

mikeschinkel wrote on December 30, 2009, 3:01am

@ebaur - At this point I'd realized you have far more time on your hands to debate this issue than I do. It seems you'd rather spend time debating against what other people need than worrying about how to be productive yourself. I get that. You are convinced your perspective is more applicable than mine; how will anything I say change that? So I've wasted far too much valuable time on this issue, I will leave you to your own devices. Goodbye.