Aqua Taskforce

jasper wrote on October 5, 2008, 11:43am

That's actually Adobe's fault. Apple doesn't have any applications that use this system (I don't even think that HUD's are hidden). This is a Photoshop thing, but thank god: all these panels would pop up in Exposé otherwise! Anyway, this is actually Adobe's fault (they also use their own set of interface guidelines and this can certainly not be blamed on Apple).

MicrowaveDave wrote on October 5, 2008, 1:21pm

You're full of crap jasper. Just open up for example TextEdit or Stickies, Apple's own applications, and open up the Font and Colour pallets. Both of them disappear immediately when you switch to another application.

This has caused annoyance before because I was trying to copy some font and colour settings from one application into another but the damn things kept disappearing on me. Again I had to resort to using pencil and paper to copy the settings and transcribe them into the other app.

BTW I'm was laughing so hard when I heard your iPod Touch is broken. Funniest thing I've heard all month. Sob stories don't work around here (you told me that).

jasper wrote on October 5, 2008, 3:52pm

I just said it was broken, Dave. I'm getting a refund from my insurance company and I'm getting a brand new one. Sob story with an happily ever after. Anyways, I didn't say that just to make me look right - my post was founded and good.

I am a graphic designer, I work with fonts all the time, and I never ever had a problem with this one. If you want to copy things over you might want to put something at use: your brain. As a graphic designer I know what fonts I'm using, and colors can be copied over using their hex number. This is an Adobe problem mostly, and it's something that happens with every applications (now that I think of it, most Applications do that with non-document windows). Here's the good thing: most applications allow you to copy and paste with all the font and color choices intact.

No matter what, I'm glad that not all those Windows stick around because it would clutter the screen. Just like your idea to get that 'windowshade' back, it would clutter the desktop and make it harder to find the window we're looking for.

And Dave, I didn't even know this post was yours when I made the comment so stop acting like all my replies are to put you down - I just think most of your ideas are been-there-done-that or absolutely not something that requires any focus since they don't create notable problems, they only solve your complaints about not being able to find ways around it. For example: you can get around the font-copying thing in Adobe apps by just copying some text and pasting it somewhere else (in a text field). This will keep the layout intact, allowing you to use it there. As far as I know I don't see any use for the info-palette cross-application because you don't need that info outside (although you could reply and tell my why you would need ino from the palette in any other application and I will be happy to give you credit for it). I will bend towards what you say when it makes sense.

(+ apparantly I'm not alone on this, since you already got -2 on that scoreboard up there)

ebaur wrote on October 6, 2008, 12:31am

Jaspar is correct, this is mostly the developer's fault, not Apple's - and, as such, Apple can't do anything about it. According to the Human Interface Guidelines, the floating palette is supposed to be used for things like tools, etc. and not for "information" - this is for exactly the reason that MicrowaveDave points out.

Now, is this mis-used? Sure. I can think of all sorts of apps that break the HIG at one place or another (including the ones I've written). Don't yell at Apple for it. (Your example of the Font Palette is interesting... but you are going about it wrong. If you need to copy the font settings, you should set up a favorite so the font panel will save the information for you. All apps have access to the same font panel, if they want to.)

Oh, and a quick suggestion... take a quick screen grab of the window you need to copy info from and then open that up in Preview. Yes, and extra step or two, but easier than pencil and paper sometimes.

Not to perpetuate the argument... but you should probably settle down, MicrowaveDave. Considering your quote in another article, "Being an IT admin myself, NOBODY cares about us" and then laughing at jaspar for a broken iPod and telling him he needs to learn how to use a computer... maybe your users would care more if you did, too.

MicrowaveDave wrote on October 6, 2008, 1:44am

ANY application that uses Apple's own Font and Colour pickers is affected, meaning Apple break their own guidelines. There are more examples I just can't think of them at the moment. When they provide a tool that makes it easier to break guidelines, they make an inconsistent, annoying OS just like Microsoft who constantly change and break their own guidelines. Setting up favourites is a good idea for some jobs but doesn't always work if the application you use has its own font and colour pickers. I don't see a single reason why a pallet should disappear when you move to another application. It doesn't create clutter. It's just stupid. If you don't want clutter, you can just minimise the windows.

jasper wrote on October 6, 2008, 8:34am

You still haven't come up with a good reason why you should need these palettes to stay. Except for color and font information (wich can be copied from any app using the fonts overlay panel to any app using the same panel) there is actually no example of trying to type anything from one place to another.

So MicroWaveDave: you can't come up with more examples than one (the fonts and color picker panels stndard in the system) but you seem to forget that copying and pasting it into another application keeps formatting. So if you really need formatting from one file to another, you can just copy a few words, paste and then replace them. Wala, you didn't even need to copy anything from a panel floating in the background because all the info is kept accurate!

And the scoreboard sais... -5. Not like anything improved after my last reply.

jasper wrote on October 6, 2008, 8:36am

You still haven't come up with a good reason why you should need these palettes to stay. Except for color and font information (wich can be copied from any app using the fonts overlay panel to any app using the same panel) there is actually no example of trying to type anything from one place to another.

So MicroWaveDave: you can't come up with more examples than one (the fonts and color picker panels stndard in the system) but you seem to forget that copying and pasting it into another application keeps formatting. So if you really need formatting from one file to another, you can just copy a few words, paste and then replace them. Wala, you didn't even need to copy anything from a panel floating in the background because all the info is kept accurate!

And the scoreboard sais... -5. Not like anything improved after my last reply.

MicrowaveDave wrote on October 6, 2008, 9:16am

I already told you why I need to transfer it between applications. If you're incapable of reading the topic description (which quite clearly states why I want the windows to stay open) I'll repeat it here one more time for the dummies: I need to copy dimensions, font and colour information into my email application so they can be replicated in another project and we can have correct size posters printed using the same font styles and colours. I can copy and paste fonts from Photoshop into Entourage, but doing so would be useless because I need to give the printers the exact CMYK values and tell them which fonts to purchase and which styles/sizes to use. There are 4 CMYK values for each colour, and we had some posters that had to be stuck all over buses so some of them were complex dimensions, one of them required 48 different dimensions for all the panels. Copying and pasting the font and colour itself doesn't display the values. To copy them into Entourage, I need to see them in front of me. I could take a screen snapshot then open it in preview, but it's a long-winded work-around for something that should never be a problem in the first place. I've had issues before when copying dimensions from Illustrator designs to ArchiCAD and other CAD packages.

You CAN'T copy and paste from some floating windows. The OS simply won't let you. You either have to take a snapshot of the screen or write everything down on paper.

Just found another example of a pallet that disappears when you change apps: Quicktime Player's A/V controls window closes whenever you switch apps. The Find dialog boxes in some applications like Adium disappear when switching apps. I have come across plenty more examples over the years, just can't think of them right now.

This website really needs a 'Report abusive users' button.

jasper wrote on October 6, 2008, 10:55am

Well, Dave, first of all: abusive users? Just because I disagree doesn't mean you have to act as if I'm trying to mass-murder all of you.

If you're a graphic designer then you know that this is bullocks. You can easely create packages with InDesign (the application you should be using when making posters) and everything is saved there in CMYK color values as well. Now in some - but very few - cases, dissapearing windows deliver an actual problem. And as said, the needs of many outgrow the needs of few. Hidding those windows reduces clutter, something every users has benefits from. Only very few users (who handle projects on a way that I'm not acustomed to in the graphic industry) see a problem. Find you way around it. Also, again, if you're a professional you should be perfectly aware of what fonts you're using and wich colors - I know I do. If I don't, I don't blame Apple for hiding the Windows - I blame myself for not remembering crucial information on the project.

This website really needs a 'Report Moping Grandpa' button.

MicrowaveDave wrote on October 6, 2008, 11:36am

InDesign? Did I ever mention InDesign? No... I didn't... And I'm not doing any designing. I'm just looking at an overview that was stored in an Illustrator document, and want to duplicate it into another document. I didn't produce the Illustrator file myself so have NO idea what fonts or colours are in it, but need to extract elements from it and place them in an email for another company to look at and provide costings.

Another real-world example I just remembered, two months ago my friend drew up a quick design in Illustrator and wanted it reproduced in marble. The marble suppliers don't do any form of computer design, they just cut a piece to the dimensions you need and another company does the tooling. Sending the suppliers an InDesign or Illustrator file would be pointless, they don't even have a computer there, it's in a rural area of Thailand. I had to measure all the dimensions of the marble, add them up and send the measurements to the marble supplier so they could provide a piece of the correct thickness, length and width. I had trouble then because Illustrator always hid the dimensions from me whenever I switched to the calculator, so had to write it down on paper then do the calculations after.

Quote: "Now in some - but very few - cases, dissapearing windows deliver an actual problem"
- There, you said it, you agree with me. Great. Discussion over.

jasper wrote on October 6, 2008, 11:58am

I'm agreeing with you on the some-and-very-few cases. Only one man out of eleven million (rough estimate) needs to use marble. And I still don't understand what the hell you need ilustrator for. Even if you had to email stuff, you could still publish it straight from InDesign instead op copying. However, you quotes a part of what I said - and not the important part. The important ons was "The Needs of Many Outgrow The Needs of the Few". Nobody should actually focus on this, since it's only once in a lifetime you need that and developers just didn't want to spent time making everything for one user. Hiding windows will be liked by most users since it reduces clutter, and not hiding wouldn't make a difference to most users, of even have a use.

ebaur wrote on October 6, 2008, 1:55pm

Here's a suggestion for you, MicrowaveDave. Have you considered using Dashboard stickies?

When you invoke the Dashboard, utility panels don't disappear like they do when going into expose or changing apps. You can write down your info, then copy it out of the sticky and paste it into your e-mail.

MicrowaveDave wrote on October 6, 2008, 2:55pm

ebaur, thank you thank you thank you! That's a BRILLIANT idea... I completely forgot about Dashboard Stickies. Just tested your solution and it works fine with the Font and Colour pickers, haven't tried it with Illustrator because it's not installed on this computer but will try it tomorrow.

That's fantastic! You truly made my day. I owe you one!