Submission details
No Network Trash can
OS 9 had a Network Trash can. If I moved a file from a network volume to the trash can, it would appear in my local trash can but still be stored on the server in an invisible Network Trash folder. The trashed file could be restored with the 'Put Away' command or by dragging it to a different location, and would only be deleted when the trash was emptied.
OS X has removed this feature. Now I'm told 'The item will be deleted immediately' with an OK or Cancel button. This is very inconsistent. Why bother having a trash can in the first place if it doesn't work all the time? Network Attached Storage devices are becoming so popular these days (Apple even sell them) it seems logical to make them more user-friendly.
Move trashed files to a Network Trash folder on the server. The Finder already adds .ds_store files, .(resource) files and various other bits and pieces to each folder it accesses, so adding one more thing would just be a minor annoyance but a major gain in usability.
Medium
Medium
Not fixed
Discussion (10 comments)
Of course it's rubbish. It's a trash can
This function worked perfectly well in OS 9 and I had 35 staff in my IT dept who used it regularly. Files were not left 'in hot air' if the connection was lost, because they were stored safely in the Network Trash folder until the user logged in again. I don't see your problem with it jasper. Just because Apple removed a feature doesn't mean people never used it and it wouldn't be useful today.
Are you suggesting that the Mac's own local trash can should be removed, because it's confusing and 'you're throwing it out anyway'?
Using OS X on a network share with Windows already creates clutter. The added benefit is that Windows users are not disadvantaged by this Network Trash folder like they are with .ds_store files and resource forks, because the file still exists inside the Network Trash folder until it is deleted or the trash emptied on the Mac. In fact we used to use this on a big multi-national network with OS 9. No files were ever deleted immediately, they were put in the network trash folder 'just in case' (which is really the main reason for having the Trash in the first place, so you don't delete something by accident) and Windows users could also access them if need be.
No, no, no.... this is a bad idea.
"They would even be available to Windows Users."
No, they wouldn't. At least not in a place they'd expect them to be. Let's not forget that, by default, the .Trashes folder is given a hidden attribute, so it's a hidden folder.
The Mac OS respects the Hidden attribute. Windows does not. Please explain to me why Windows users won't 'expect them to be' there if they are always placed there. Even if it was hidden as you suggest, Windows can be set to display hidden files in Windows Explorer. I do it all the time.
I fail to see why it's a bad idea when it always worked well in OS 9. I have users who recently migrated to OS X from OS 9 and are asking why they now can't put something in the trash if it's on a network volume. I have no answer for them. 'It's a bad idea' is not a sufficient answer when they've been doing it for many years without issue. These people are not living in the dark ages, they simply never had a need to use OS X before because OS 9 always serviced them well.
The main reason that this always worked in OS 9 is simply because classic MacOS only supported AFS for network file systems. Now, OS X supports AFS, SMB and NFS (probably more, actually... that's the common ones I've used).
The problem is that when you're trying to be have consistent behavior, you need to cater to the lowest common denominator. File systems (any of them) don't have a concept of trash. All they do is have a generally agreed upon location where trash files are stored. In OS 9, that was always the same place, no matter who you were (since there wasn't good multi-user support pre-OS X). Now, each user has their own trash.
Some of the problems that can occur. If a Mac user on a primarily Windows network trashes a file, then the Windows file server doesn't know that. When it starts to run out of space, it can't remove that file from the recycle bin like it normally would on a local desktop. Note also that Windows clients delete immediately from file servers as well, so as not to leave cruft behind. Another possible issue is if you delete a file from a server that you rarely log into. That file is unlikely to ever be deleted, either.
NFS has similar issues to SMB, but it's worth remembering there that NFS is from a Unix world where the concept of a recycle bin/trash can is totally foreign. The Linux desktop (ie: X Window) environments have had to play tricks like Mac OS and Windows on top of the file system to account for this.
I don't know the current behavior on AFS shares now. If it's the same as the other two, that might be best for consistency.
SO, although it seems nice for some to retain the old behavior, it would cause the Mac OS clients to be hated by IT admins and other Windows users all over the place. Oh, and pointing out that Mac OS isn't a good citizen in other ways (the .DS_Store files) isn't a good reason to not be a good citizen in this way. I personally think that the DS_Store files are a horrible idea and they should be removed.
AppleShare OS 9 server supported SMB connections. I know this because I administered 5 AppleShare servers with both Windows and Mac clients connected. Windows has its own recycle bin and deletes files immediately. Mac has a perfectly working Network Trash. The two play fine together. One can't use the other. An administrator running a server cleanup can always go in and delete stagnating Network Trash folders. To remove a feature simply because Windows DOESN'T have it is the stupidist thing I've ever heard.
And all OS X machines are already hated by IT admins and Windows users because they crap .ds_store and _(resource) files all over the place. If people cared about annoying admins, they'd be kind enough simply not to log on, maybe go and get a job working in a farm somewhere. Being an IT admin myself, NOBODY cares about us (until somebody has a problem and yells at me asking why their computer keeps randomly changing file dates).
@MicrowaveDave: Only if "Show Hidden Files" is checked in Explorer?
To be completely honest, the whole concept of a "trash" folder is a bad idea and, as ebaur mentions above, is actually achieved by 'hacking' the filesystem.
Regarding your comments about IT in general, about the fact that your users don't care about you... perhaps you have to look at your outlook on things. "They'd be kind enough simply not to log on..." - way to go. What an attitude to have.
It's this kind of attitude that gives IT departments a bad name.
"the whole concept of a "trash" folder is a bad idea"
Are you suggesting the trash can should be completely removed?
"It's this kind of attitude that gives IT departments a bad name."
I'm just trying to make things easier for my users by giving them back their missing Network Trash folder. If I can do ANYTHING to make my users a bit more comfortable with their IT systems, it makes my job a lot easier and a lot more fulfilling.
I worked for an AppleCentre for a few years and had to quit, because whenever Apple removed a feature from their OS, they came and yelled at *ME*. I didn't remove the feature. Often I want the feature back myself. But some users see the network admins as the problem thinking we can fix stuff but we just don't want to. They don't understand that if Apple removes something that's been available in their OS since 1988, I can't magically add it back in for them. Sometimes a third-party utility steps in and replaces lost functionality, sometimes the feature is just gone for good. At least Windows never removes features, which is why large corporations can rely on it so much even with its shortcomings.
Oh. Sad stories don't work in real life, this sin't a movie. Apple removed features but you got fired? That just meant you were crap at explaining what happened, or bad at convincing your boss to not upgrade to the newer version. Just Quit It. We're not flaming you, we just find that everything you've been posting is without it's merrits, and we have given obvious reasons why these things don't do it in these modern days.
jasper, I wrote 'I worked for an AppleCentre for a few years and had to quit' - not 'I was fired from Apple'. And I don't see how convincing my boss to upgrade to a newer version will help if the newer version is broken and REMOVES the features we need.
I know English isn't your first language and you're doing pretty well reading and writing, but you really should try to read paragraphs all the way through. If you get confused reading simple sentences like the one above then of course you'll be confused by the concept of a network trash can. I really pity you.
jasper wrote on October 1, 2008, 11:04am
This is rubbish. Another Trash Can would confuse users, and would not be logical. Also, since Windows and mac servers have to work together, a network trash can wouldn't be usefull. And what's the point of having files in a Trash folder on a Network? If you throw something in the trash, you're throwing it out anyway.
Sorry, you're posting a lot and all about networks - but come on, this is ridiculous. You're stuck in 1999, MacOS 9.
Why bother having a Trash Can? Apple tells you when you delete a network file - it doesn't support Trash Cans. It has to delete immediatly, because if the connection is lost there will be files in hot air. Trash is also not a real folder on OS X, so it can't be a real folder on a network.
By the way, another example of what DS_STORE files could be good for - but the problem is that if a Windows computer connects he won't look into those files and read the file, while on Mac the file will be in a Trash Can. So it's here, but not really here. It makes for a clutter.